Author Topic: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean -- Discussion  (Read 27317 times)

Danny252

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2014, 04:54:01 pm »
Aha! Looks like most of the important ones are over there - sadly, my Cyrillic isn't good enough to give the proper versions for the new ones...

propriome

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2014, 10:21:18 pm »
I've added them,hoping not to have mismatched too much... i know a little the alphabet, but i'm not sure about the pronounce of new terms (some are on Google translate, but not every one), and Slavic languages have several consonants with sounds appearing pretty similar to a western-language speaker (i.e. if 'Sopka' is pronounced 'Shopka' i've most probably mismatched the starting letter).

Our Slavic speaking users will hopefully warn us if I got something wrong :)

mapurves

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2014, 11:11:45 pm »
I've added them,hoping not to have mismatched too much... i know a little the alphabet, but i'm not sure about the pronounce of new terms (some are on Google translate, but not every one), and Slavic languages have several consonants with sounds appearing pretty similar to a western-language speaker (i.e. if 'Sopka' is pronounced 'Shopka' i've most probably mismatched the starting letter).

Our Slavic speaking users will hopefully warn us if I got something wrong :)

The Geographical terms look good to me. (I had 2 1/2 years of Russian in university, many years ago.) I had a job transliterating Russian Cyrillic to the western alphabet for about a year or so at the time.) If you're puzzled by any particular name, just message me and I'll take a crack at it.

Michael

mapurves

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2014, 11:35:08 pm »
Looking again,

Mel' (Мель) - Shoal    I wouldn't transliterate the ь at the end of a word, so it would be Mel   (same for Камень - Kamen)

and, perhaps,

Reyd (Рейд) the й is usually a letter j, so Rejd.

Mind you, the transliterating rules change every so often and there were a few other Cyrillic characters pre-revolution that have since disappeared. Plus the habit of some log keepers to write whatever they felt like at the time, just to confuse us even more.

Mind you, checking Wiki I see that the rules I was using (for libraries, and not on this Wiki page) were different than the current rules. (Щ  for me in the library ordering system fifty years ago was shch).

However, for me, the Russian is much easier than the Arabic names mentioned on the HMS Grafton when she was sailing in the Arabian Sea.

It would be so much easier if everyone in the world just used English!!!!   ;)


Randi

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2014, 06:54:47 am »
Easier, but terribly boring ;)
And full of confusing spellings ;D

Janet Jaguar

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2014, 05:06:03 pm »
The cost of having a mother tongue that is a johnny-come-lately creole language based on 3 root tongues, that adores taking words from every language it comes in contact with - horrible spelling, and everyone has an older language than we do.  And we have many more words to pun with, for the fun of it.  :D

propriome

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2014, 10:05:28 am »
Just come to this one while searching those terrible yang-tse positions (the fact the river has changed its course a lot does not help at all >:( ):
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924071164986#page/n473/mode/2up
Dove's Nest, Actaeon shoal, Vine point, Centaur shoal and a lot of other buoys, lights and places are mentioned.

Also this French map has some useful names:
http://216.117.166.233/zoom_map.htm?zoomifyImagePath=http://216.117.166.233/os/zoom/29885/

The London Gazette newspaper show changes to buoys and other placemarks with position. I should broaden search... actually i found these two while looking for a specific place:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27954/page/6644/data.pdf (1906 - SE Spit buoy and Actaeon shoal buoy)
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27573/page/4282/data.pdf (1903 - several buoys)
Searching google with site:thegazette.co.uk "yang tse kiang" brings a lot of results.


This pdf comprises some chinese/english names: http://oldchinabooks.com/yangshen/Yang_Shen_Glossary.pdf


Also these two David Rumsey's maps, even if recent, contains a couple of useful names:
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~205597~3002507
http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~208211~3001936


Some nice map Shanghai to Wuhu can be found here (too bad some of the names are uneasy impossible to read):
http://www.virtualshanghai.net/Asset/Preview/vcMap_ID-575_No-1.jpeg
http://www.virtualshanghai.net/Asset/Preview/vcMap_ID-574_No-1.jpeg
http://www.virtualshanghai.net/Asset/Preview/vcMap_ID-573_No-1.jpeg

--------------------------
Amalgamted into main info list: http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=3386.msg66906#msg66906   Thank you for these! 17.11.14 Joan
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 09:19:08 pm by AvastMH »

propriome

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2014, 02:46:12 pm »
I did start editing current reference with red corrections, but I realized it was not a great idea. So i'm posting here my little corrections (and answer, when possible, to the question marks) to the main list:

  • Woosung - is still named as such nowadays (position 31.38,121.49 on the Wusong Kou river), Baoshan is a little northwest of it on the Yangtze
  • Sloping Clump - Sloping Clump Fort is Shizi-Lin-Paotai, or Lion Fort, one of the several Wusung Forts. Position 31.41, 121.49, now in Baoshan
  • Dove's Nest - Baimao-Chao or Paimao-Sha was a group of banks. Should be a little to the northwest of Chongming, position 31.74, 121.17
  • Actaeon Shoals - Laoshu-Chao or Actaeon Shoal (and two buoys) was one of the several Dove's Nest banks, position 31.75,121.14
  • Centaur Bank - Just below Actaeon Shoal (had two buoys as well) was one of the several Dove's Nest banks, position 31.72,121.15
  • Plover Point - Is due east of Fushan, and southeast of Langshan crossing, at position 31.77, 120.94
  • Kuishan Point/Kushan Point
    • Kinshan Point or Keashan Point is in position 32.06, 120.56 far northwest of Junshan
    • Kuishan is Cooper Island or Cooper Bank, position 32.05, 120.65
  • Tienshien/Tungchow
    • Tungchow is indeed Nantong
    • Tienshien is now Tianshenggang, slightly northwest, position 32.04,120.76
  • Vine Point - Vine Point Shoal was in the middle of the river, southeast of Nantong, and had two buoys. Position 31.97,120.80
  • Pitman King Island - Pitmanking Island is now part of the land in front of Nantong. Position 31.95,120.73
  • Cooper Bank/Cooper Island - Is Kuishan or Kai Sha in position 32.05, 120.65
  • Rose Island - Seems to be in a pretty different place, between Kiangyin and Chinkiang, not existing anymore, position 32.30,119.73
  • Kang Yin forts/Kiangyin, Espiegle Rocks
    • Forts are a little outside the city at 31.94,120.28 on Hwangshan Hills
    • For Espiegle Rocks i'm a little uncertain - there's an Espiegle Rock at 32.21, 119.68, pretty far from Kiangyin
  • Bate Point - On the northern side of the river between Kiangyin and Chinkiang, position 31.98,120.02
  • Sinnimu Creek - Sanjiang Kou, was on the opposite side of Yangtze, the actual Jiajiang River, position 32.31,119.70
  • Beaver Island - No more existing, Beaver or Pottinger Island was on the east side of the river, above Cruizer Point, more or less in the area of actual Changshengwei, approximate position 32.27, 119.85
  • Chang Sang Chou - Not sure about where Dagangzhen from reference is, however the island of Ho-Shang Chou or Chang Sang Chau was at approximate position 32.22, 119.53
  • Tasha Island - Ta Sha Island, or also Ia-Sha Island, was pretty near to Silver Island, and is now part of the river bank, at position 32.24,119.46
  • Deer Island/Pi-Sin-Chau - Also Pih Sin Chau, actually Shiye Zhou
  • Bethune Point - Was indeed the west end of Shiye Zhou. There was a light and beacon on the point
  • Ta-Ho-Kau - Indeed Qingshanzhen on the northern shore. Position 32.25,119.07
  • Morris Point/Morrison Point/Lone Tree Hill
    • Morris/Morrison Point was on the river, approximate position 32.24,119.13
    • Lone Tree Hill was pretty far from river, should be actual Tong Shan, position 32.16,119.13

Added 10/11/2014

  • Duck Island - Xi Shan Shan or Xi San Shan was a bank, indeed could be the actual Zimu Zhou Island, position 31.91,118.57
  • Pheasant Island - Should be the actual Xinsheng Zhou Island (the southern of Zaisheng Zhou Islands - but the two were attached in the past), position 31.81,118.51
  • May Queen Island - Now attached to historical Gros Island, was on the southern side. Position 31.71,118.43
  • Rosina Rock - A rock from wich a new bank was forming. North of historical Gros Island. Position 31.77,118.46
  • Heasanchan Bluff/Heasanchan Point/Heasanshan Bluff - Hea Shan Shan or Hea San Shan is a bluff on the eastern side of the river, in front of Duck Island. Position 31.92,118.61
  • Tai Ping Fu - The port of Taiping is indeed the actual city of Gushu or Dangtu
  • East and West Pillar/Rocky Point
    • East and West Pillars or just The Pillars are still marking the narrow in the river just below Tai Ping. The narrow itsel was named Tien Mun. Position 31.50,118.36
    • Rocky Point is pretty elsewhere, just below Duck Island on the east side of river. Position 31.88,118.57
  • Wade Island - The big Wade Island is in front of Tai Ping. Position 31.61,118.43
  • Haines Point - Also Hains Point or Haius Point, marking bank of the same name, is west of Wuhu on the southern side of river. Position 31.27,118.21
  • Shansi Beacon - The Shansi bank and beacon are east of Haines Bank and point, west of Wuhu on the southern side of river. Position 31.28,118.27
  • Barker Island - The big Barker Island is north of Kieu Hien town (actually Xingang). Position 31.23, 118.04
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
main list includes above corrections- thank you, Joan 17.11.14
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 05:49:02 pm by AvastMH »

AvastMH

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2014, 02:15:58 pm »
Hi Propriome!
Having despaired of the messy look of my lists - and having helpful maps to install on the relevant lists I finally bit the bullet and put all the place names into one excel sheet. I'll enter your notes and corrections today in a while as THE SUN IS OUT...hurrrraaaahhhh. Cheers!! :-)

AvastMH

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2014, 06:31:52 pm »
Hi Propriome - does this mean that Tienshen and Tungchow are one and the same please?

Tienshien/Tungchow
Tungchow is indeed Nantong
Tienshien is now Tianshenggang, slightly northwest, position 32.04,120.76

propriome

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2014, 12:27:02 pm »
Hi Avast,

Wrong choice of word ::)..
With "now" i was meaning the town is actually named Tianshenggang, the two were separated even in the past, though near one another..

AvastMH

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 02:21:23 pm »
Cheers Propriome!

AvastMH

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2014, 09:25:13 pm »
This list is up to date.......now for a cuppa, a biscuit, and peeling the pickling onions. Yeeeeeeeeeeeeha!
To all you hard working place-name-finders - blessings be upon you. :-*
Some wise person will post another 30 places tomorrow - but as Blanche said at the end of Gone With the Wind..'Tomorrow is another day'  :P ::)

propriome

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2014, 10:59:02 am »
Great work there!  :D 8)

AvastMH

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Re: China Station, Japan, Pacific and Indian Ocean.
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2014, 04:35:21 pm »
The 1944 map i've used as source is this one from Perry Castaneda collection: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/luzon/txu-pclmaps-oclc-6528802-manaoag.jpg (for a better view could be joined with this one, containing Dagupan town: www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/luzon/txu-pclmaps-oclc-6528802-lingayen.jpg)
Large files, and the server sometimes stops answering... try refreshing page (and/or Ctrl+F5 to refresh without cache) if you get a broken image and want to see them.

ref posting for Philippine maps - thank you Propriome.