Author Topic: Russian Place Names -- Discussion  (Read 10952 times)

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2016, 07:33:12 pm »
August 1st
Bering Island = Ostrov Beringa Latitude:  55? 0' 3" (55.0008?) north Longitude:  166? 16' 23" (166.2731?) east
and some landmarks on the island
Ostrovnoi Point =  Mys Ostrovnoi, (State: Kamchatskaya Oblast')  54?49'10" N 166?22'26" E
Tonkoi Point = Mys Tonki (also spelled Tonkiy) 51?40'60" N 157?58'1" E
Poludionaye Rookery = Poludennoe Lezhbische = Poludennaya Latitude:  54? 58' 51" (54.9808?) north
Longitude:  166? 10' 42" (166.1783?) east
Point Manati = Mys Monati Latitude:  54? 40' 52.5" (54.6813?) north Longitude:  166? 40' 9" (166.6692?) east
August 2nd back on Copper Island (Medny)
Sivatchi Kamen = Sivutchi Kamen = Kekur Sivuchiy Kamen' Latitude:  54? 47' 22" (54.7894?) north
Longitude:  167? 39' 18" (167.655?) east
There are 2 sivutchi kamens on this island and another on nearby bering island
August 3rd
Kladkovski Rock = Kamen Gladkovski = Kamen' Gladkovskiy Latitude:  54? 46' (54.7667?) north
Longitude:  167? 38' (167.6333?) east
There are also features named Gladkovski on Bering Island
Karabelni Bay = B.Korabelnaya = Bukhta Korabel'naya Latitude:  54? 42' 10.6" (54.703?) north
Longitude:  167? 46' 46.2" (167.7795?) east
Karabelni Pt = Mys Korabelny = Mys Korabel'nyy Latitude:  54? 41' 22.1" (54.6895?) north
Longitude:  167? 49' 27.4" (167.8243?) east
Karabelni Village Possibly an exaggeration
Urili Rock  Bearing point from Korabelni Bay = Urili Kamen (mentioned in a journal but cannot locate in a map.
4th August
Zhiravoi Point = Mys Zhiravoi = Mys Zhirovoy Latitude:  54? 45' 46.9" (54.763?) north
Longitude:  167? 43' 45.3" (167.7292?) east

All places added to map, ref & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

For Tonkoi Point, i think you've mismatched with a point of the same name on Siberian coastline, west of Kamchatka peninsula. I suppose you were referring to Mys Tonkiy (55.07478, 166.07395 -  55 04 29N, 166 04 26E) on Bering Island instead.

For Karabelni Village i've added the probable site of some building to the east of river entering Korabelni Bay. loadmap.net (Russian Topographic Map GGC option - cyrillic reading needed) shows a single structure that can be seen also on actual satellite imageries. Probably just a rockery, but a populated structure was probably existing indeed at the center of the bay.

For Urili Rock, no luck on maps, but i'd be curious to check it out with some of our tools (with Michael we've developed some utility tools which could be useful in these cases)... could you provide some additional info about it? Like its bearing, any other bearing and/or ship position inside the bay.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 10:26:02 am by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2016, 02:15:32 pm »
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_038_1.jpg
Anchored in Karabelni Bay in 14.5 fms.
Bearings at Anchorage: Urili Rock NW by W 1/4W Karabelni Pt. ENE 1/2E

Karabelni village is probably a few huts to process seals from the nearby rookery and only occupied seasonally.



Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2016, 03:49:49 pm »
5th August 1896
Outer Bobrovi rock = Bobrovye Kamni (Sea Otter Rocks) = Kamni Bobrovyye Latitude:  54? 53' (54.8833?) north Longitude:  167? 26' 30" (167.4417?) east
7th August
Glinka = Bukhta Glinka Latitude:  54? 35' 9" (54.5858?) north Longitude:  167? 58' 18" (167.9717?) east
9th August back on Bering island
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_044_1.jpg
Seal Rock ?
Ari Rock = Ostrov Ari Kamen probably.

propriome

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2016, 09:59:02 am »
Hi Hurlock!

Thank you!
New places will be added shortly to map, ref & csv.

Given ship anchorage bearings, i'm quite confident Urili Rock is that big boulder in the center of Korabelni Bay. It's marked on several maps, even if without a name. I've added it in position 54.69546, 167.77865 (54 41 44N,  167 46 43E).

Given ship noon position and her movements, Seal Rock should be Kamen Sivuchiy (55.36712, 165.96563 - 55 22 02N, 165 57 56E), north of Mys Yushina and Severnoye (rockery was a little southwest of the town, along the coast), the ship then went westward along Bering Island coast, passed Mys Severo-Zapadnyy,  turned southward, and came 3 miles SE of Ari Rock, which should be indeed Ostrov Ariy Kamen (55.2151, 165.79085 - 55 12 54N, 165 47 27E).
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 10:05:18 am by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2016, 08:02:51 pm »
Some points on the Kamchatka peninsular
August 10th 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_045_1.jpg
Kronotski Mountain= Kronotsky = Vulkan Kronotskaya Sopka Latitude:  54? 45' 15" (54.7542?) north Longitude:  160? 32' 3" (160.5342?) east
Kercheffski Mountain = (tentatively) Klyuchevskaya Volcano = Vulkan Klyuchevskaya Sopka Latitude:  56? 3' 21.7" (56.056?) north Longitude:  160? 38' 38.7" (160.6441?) east
August 11th
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_046_1.jpg
Shipunski (also logged as Tschipunski) Point= Cape Shipunskii = Mys Shipunskiy Latitude:  53? 5' 57.9" (53.0994?) north Longitude:  160? 2' 3.6" (160.0343?) east
Wiluchinski Mountain = Vilyuchinskaya Volcano = Vulkan Vilyuchinskaya Sopka Latitude:  52? 42' 18.3" (52.7051?) north Longitude:  158? 16' 53.1" (158.2814?) east
Kuzolska Mountain = Kozeliskaya Volcano = Gora Kozel'skaya Latitude:  53? 13' 35.1" (53.2264?) north Longitude:  158? 53' 20.6" (158.8891?) east
Avatcha Bay = Avachinskaya Guba Latitude:  52? 58' 3.8" (52.9677?) north Longitude:  158? 34' 0.7" (158.5669?) east
White Rock ? possibly just a description
the Brothers Rocks = Kamni Tri Brata  Latitude:  52? 53' 36.6" (52.8935?) north
Longitude:  158? 41' 17.7" (158.6883?) east
Petropaulski = Petropavlovski-Kamchatsky Latitude:  53? 3' 24.8" (53.0569?) north Longitude:  158? 37' 19.1" (158.622?) east


All places added to ref, map & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

Agree with Kronotski and Klyuchevskaya Volcanoes, even if they've taken bearings on quite far objects (there are several Mys and minor landmarks in the area). All bearings are compatible with the two given volcanoes and they were coming from open sea... maybe those two high peaks (3500 and almost 5000 meters) were more immediately identifiable from distance.

For White rock, the position of ship and bearing of Mys Mayachnyy lighthouse (i've added it to our references) on Avachinskaya Guba entrance is compatible with it being Ostrov Toporkov (52.92234, 158.77707 - 52 55 20N, 158 46 37E), but i'm not totally sure, since it could be indeed a generic reference. I've added Ostrov Toporkov but left out its eventual White rock alias.

Avacha Bay, Kamni Tri Brata and Petropavlovsk were already in our references.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 11:07:03 am by propriome »

Randi

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2016, 08:19:24 pm »
Impressive list you are accumulating, Hurlock!

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2016, 07:14:55 pm »
A few more on the peninsular and then quite a lot of namechecks cruising down the Kurils and Sakhalin Island

18th August 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_053_1.jpg
Tarenski Habor = Staraya Tar'ya Latitude:  52? 56' 58.4" (52.9496?) north Longitude:  158? 24' 35.6" (158.4099?) east
19th August
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_054_1.jpg
Tarenski Bay = Bukhta Tar'ya Latitude:  52? 55' (52.9167?) north Longitude:  158? 28' (158.4667?) east
Dolni Point probably a point near Ozero Dal'neye a lake near the coast.
20th August
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_055_1.jpg
Povorotnaya Mountain = Povorotnaya Volcano = Vulkan Mutnovskaya Sopka Latitude:  52? 26' 57.4" (52.4493?) north Longitude:  158? 11' 42.8" (158.1952?) east
Iliana, Iliana Mountain = Sopka Ilinskaya = Vulkan Il'inskiy Latitude:  51? 29' 47.8" (51.4966?) north Longitude:  157? 12' 14" (157.2039?) east
Kasheliova Mountain = ?

All places added to ref, map & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

Wasn't too sure Tarenski Bay and Tarenski Harbor were two distinct locations... mainly because it doesn't match too much with bearings, and also because i think the Old (Staraya) Tarya village, if existing in 1896, hadn't properly an harbor... have put Tarenski Bay and Tarenski Harbor both as aliases to Bukhta Tar'ya.

Dolni Point should be just Dalni Point, which is an alias for the already entered Mys Mayachnyy (odd they did not report the lighthouse though)... it matches with its SE1/2E bearing. To see Ozero Dal'neye on that bearing, the ship should have been on the land... unless the two bearings were mistakenly swapped (and still a position would be difficult to work out so that ship is able to see both the lake and eastern entrance of Tarenski Bay).

Agree with volcanoes (again very far bearings).
Kasheliova Mountain should be Vulkan Kosheleva (51.35393, 156.75032 - 51 21 14N, 156 45 01E).
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 10:59:18 pm by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2016, 08:38:13 pm »
They are normally very good at spotting lighthouses.  The ones in Japan get a lot of mentions.  Possibly the russian one was not functioning at the time. 

Here are some Kuril names, unfortunately the charts link from mapurves gives the japanese names and the islands were under russian influence at the time and had very different place names (it seems).  The main island names are pretty similar however.

21st August 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_056_1.jpg
Paramushir Island= Paramushiro To= Ostrov Paramushir Latitude:  50? 21' 29" (50.3581?) north Longitude:  155? 47' 21" (155.7892?) east
Makanrushi Island= Makanru To= Ostrov Makanrushi Latitude:  49? 46' 27.5" (49.7743?) north Longitude:  154? 26' 19.5" (154.4388?) east
Onekotan Island = Onekotan To = Ostrov Onekotan Latitude:  49? 15' 49.9" (49.2639?) north Longitude:  154? 42' 48.5" (154.7135?) east
Henry Point ?
Cape Kronetzen, Onekotan Island = Mys Krenitsyna Latitude:  49? 15' 49.9" (49.2639?) north Longitude:  154? 42' 48.5" (154.7135?) east
Kharim-Kotan = Harumukotan To = Ostrov Kharimkotan Latitude:  49? 7' 12" (49.12?) north Longitude:  154? 31' 51" (154.5308?) east
Shiash-Kotan Island = Shasukotan To = Ostrov Shiashkotan Latitude:  48? 48' 57.5" (48.816?) north Longitude:  154? 6' 45.4" (154.1126?) east
Sevorgin Peak, Kharim-Kotan Island = Vulkan Severgina Latitude:  49? 7' 6.1" (49.1184?) north Longitude:  154? 31' 7.9" (154.5189?) east

All places added to ref, map & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

Henry Point (or Cape Henry) should be Mys Vasil'yeva on Paramushir Island, position 50.00112, 155.39097 (50 00 04N, 155 23 27E). It matches perfectly with bearings... i was about to give up since i was uncertain between it and Mys Kapustnyy, when i found this little map of Kurils, in which Cape Henry and Cape Kapari (alias for Mys Kapustnyy) are both shown, as well as some other english placenames.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 08:37:34 am by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2016, 08:24:51 pm »
22nd August 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_057_1.jpg
Musir Rocks/Islands = Mushiro Retsugan = Skala Dolgaya Latitude:  48? 33' 10.9" (48.553?) north Longitude:  153? 51' 20.8" (153.8558?) east and Skala Kotikovaya Latitude:  48? 31' 42.5" (48.5285?) north Longitude:  153? 50' 35.8" (153.8433?) east
Raikoki Island = Raikoke To = Ostrov Raykoke Latitude:  48? 17' 34.3" (48.2929?) north Longitude:  153? 15' 7.1" (153.252?) east
Matua Island = Matsuwa To = Ostrov Matua Latitude:  48? 5' (48.0833?) north Longitude:  153? 13' (153.2167?) east
Sorychef/Sarychef Mountain, Matua Island = Vulkan Sarycheva Latitude:  48? 5' 27.7" (48.091?) north Longitude:  153? 11' 55.4" (153.1987?) east
24th August
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_059_1.jpg
Ketoy Island = Ketoi To = Ostrov Ketoy Latitude:  47? 20' 9" (47.3358?) north Longitude:  152? 28' 33" (152.4758?) east
Rashua Island = Rashuwa To = Ostrov Rasshua Latitude:  47? 44' 52.9" (47.748?) north Longitude:  153? 0' 47.6" (153.0132?) east
Ushishir Island = Ushishiru To = Ostrova Ushishir Latitude:  47? 31' 35" (47.5264?) north Longitude:  152? 49' 9" (152.8192?) east
Srednoi Rock = Suride Iwa? = Skala Srednego Latitude:  47? 35' 8" (47.5856?) north Longitude:  152? 54' 13.4" (152.9037?) east
Srednoi Island = Ostrova Srednego Latitude:  47? 35' 28.2" (47.5912?) north Longitude:  152? 52' 42.7" (152.8785?) east
Black Rock of Srednoi Island = Skaly Chernyye? Latitude:  47? 35' 45" (47.5958?) north Longitude:  152? 53' 20.7" (152.8891?) east

I am not sure if there is an actual Srednoi Island or if it refers to the group of rocks as a whole. 

26th August
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_061_1.jpg
Bobushkin Rock ?
Simusir = Shimushiru To = Ostrov Revuchiy Latitude:  47? 5' 42" (47.095?) north Longitude:  152? 14' 46" (152.2461?) east
 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 05:42:26 pm by Hurlock »

propriome

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2016, 09:48:08 am »
Hi Hurlock,

Thank you! All places added to map, ref & csv.

Quite a garbled situation there on Srednoi/Srednego islets... i've done my best but a few things remain uncertain.

Starting from the certain place...

Black Rock is indeed Skaly Chernyye/Kuro Iwa (it's formed by three little islets, whence the plural in russian name). It matches with bearings, the russian and japanese name matches (those rocks are indeed black, Kuro and Chernyy are japanese and russian words for black) and i've found it mentioned here (added the pdf in our references): Notes on the Kuril Islands by Captain H.J. Snow, 1897 (page 68 of original book - page 82 of the pdf).

Srednoi rock should be indeed Skala Srednego, which is a little rock east of Skala Khitraya (Hira Iwa)... russian name matches but i'm not totally sure (skala singular, skaly plural - ostrov singular, ostrova plural - sredni/srednoi=srednego/suride).

I've not added Srednoi Island... there's no such named place, unless they're referring to Skala Khitraya (Hira Iwa) which is the bigger one (but almost always under water).
I've added, instead, Srednoi Islands and Srednoi Rocks as aliases to Ostrova Srednego, which should be the name for the whole bunch of islets.
I've added, also, Skala Khitraya.

For Japanese names, Suride Iwa was quite puzzling.
On one of the map it seems to address the Skala Khitraya+Skala Srednego block of islets, the lettering having the same size of other Iwa in the area.
On another map the lettering was bigger, as to indicate Suride Iwa was the entire archipelago... i'm inclined to think this is the correct one. The lack of a plural form in Japanese names makes things difficult when, as in this case, it seems there's a rocky archipelago named X and an islet of the archipelago named X too. Probably "Suride Iwa" was used to indicate both the entire archipelago and the little rock.

I've, however, left out and yet to add any Japanese name for those islets. Will do soon.



Bobushkin Rock should be Skala Babushka (47.51969, 152.79064 - 47 31 11N, 152 47 26E) west of the southern one of the two Ushishir Islands.

Simusir is the big Ostrov Simushir (46.96498, 152.0459 - 46 57 54N, 152 02 45E)... Ostrov Revuchiy is a little islet along its southeastern coast.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 04:24:29 pm by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2016, 06:29:15 pm »
The logs have a few place names near Sakhalin Island next.  After that they go towards the southern Kurils and Hokkaido.

28th August 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_063_1.jpg
Robben Island = Kaihyo To = Ostrov Tyuleniy Latitude:  48? 30' 11" (48.5031?) north Longitude:  144? 37' 47.5" (144.6299?) east
Sevitchoi Rock (also logged as Sevictchi Rock) = Kamen' Sivuchiy Latitude:  48? 31' 19.6" (48.5221?) north Longitude:  144? 38' 20.5" (144.639?) east
Cape Patience = Kita-Shiretoko Misaki = Mys Turpeniya Latitude:  48? 38' 42.5" (48.6452?) north Longitude:  144? 44' 31.2" (144.742?) east

There is also mention of North Bluff and South Bluff on Robben Island.  Possibly just descriptive.

All places added to map, ref & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

I've found no mention of North and South bluffs for Robben Island... fully agree they should be just descriptive.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 09:21:28 am by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2016, 08:09:49 pm »
Albatross 4th September 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_070_1.jpg
Iterup Island (also logged as Yeterup) = Etorofu Jima = Iturup Island Latitude:  45? 6' 9.4" (45.1026?) north Longitude:  147? 48' 56" (147.8156?) east
Ikanobots Point (also mentioned as Point Ikanobots) = Ikanobotsu Misaki = Mys Breskens Latitude:  45? 26' 13.5" (45.4371?) north Longitude:  147? 55' 32.8" (147.9258?) east
Notoro Point = Notoro Misaki = Mys Ksana Latitude:  45? 6' 57.6" (45.116?) north Longitude:  147? 30' 29.4" (147.5082?) east
Shana Village (also referred to as town of Shana) = Shana = Kuril'sk Latitude:  45? 13' 36.7" (45.2269?) north Longitude:  147? 52' 39.6" (147.8777?) east

All places added to map, ref & csv. Thanks Hurlock!

Notoro Point russian name should be Mys Przheval'skogo (also Mys Notoro), which is the western point of that small peninsula. Mys Ksana is the (pretty nearby) northeastern point instead
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:39:32 am by propriome »

Hurlock

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2016, 06:51:34 pm »
Some of these places are in Russia and others in Japan and a lot are in dispute. 

Chiritubu point ?
Kumashiri Island = Kunashiri Jima = Kunashir Latitude:  44? 7' (44.1167?) north Longitude:  145? 51' (145.85?) east
Mount St Anthony (7400ft) = Chacha Dake? = Vulkan Tyatya Latitude:  44? 21' 14.7" (44.3541?) north Longitude:  146? 15' 3.6" (146.251?) east
They must have include the halo to get that height though.
Yezo Island (also transcribed Yezzo) = Hokkaido Latitude of centre:  43? north Longitude of centre:  142? east
Mount Ounebeton (5400ft) = Rausa Take? = Onnebetsu-dake Latitude:  43? 59' 35" (43.9931?) north Longitude:  145? 0' 44.4" (145.0123?) east
7th September 1896
http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/Albatross/vol028of055/vol028of055_073_1.jpg
Saghaberi Island (or with some imagination Saghalien Island) = Sakhalin? 51N 143 E
Cape Suetoko ?

The next locations mentioned are in Hokkaido so I will post them in the China Station discussion thread.  Having very little success identifying the mentions.

propriome

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2016, 11:54:14 am »
Thank you Hurlock!

Will add new places soon.

No hints on Chiritubu Point... i strongly suspect, given bearings, it's the actual Mys Kitovyy in the bay of Shana Village, but could be also actual Mys Kuril'skiy and a bunch of other places.

Mount St Anthony must be Chaka Dake/Vulkan Tyatya even if about 1400 feets are missing ::)
According to wiki There are no volcanoes above 6000ft in the Kurils area except Alaid (far to the north, Near Kamchatka coast) which is 7600ft.

Mount Ounebeton should be Mount Onnebetsu instead (Onnebetsu Dake in Japanese). Rausa Take should be another mountain nearby.

For the last two points, Saghalian Island was an old name of Sakhalin Island. Cape Suetoko should be Cape Siretoko and should be the actual Mys Aniva (or    Naka Shiretoko Misaki/Naka Siretoko Misaki/Siretoko Misaki in Japanese).



Edit: All places added to map, ref & csv
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:37:30 pm by propriome »

AvastMH

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Re: Russian Place Names -- Discussion
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2016, 10:15:06 pm »
Hi propriome,

Albion uses Kamstkatka for Kamtsjatka

:)

Added Kamchatka Peninsula and aliases. Thanks Joan!
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 01:44:24 pm by propriome »