Author Topic: Reduced One Class  (Read 3481 times)

Danny252

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Reduced One Class
« on: August 23, 2014, 06:12:39 pm »
I'm wondering what "Reduced one class" actually refers to - for example, if you reduce a Seaman by one class, does he become an Ordinary Seaman, or does the class refer to some separate part of his rate/rank which isn't usually mentioned? Similarly, would a Fireman 1st Class become a Fireman 2nd Class on reduction? (I suspect the answer to the second part is yes, but perhaps it's not so simple!)



Danny found the explanation! See http://forum.oldweather.org/index.php?topic=4198.msg102526#msg102526
(Randi)
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 10:27:38 am by Randi »

Randi

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 06:31:45 pm »
According to: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Ranks&Rates/index.html
Ranks were: Seaman, First Class; Seaman, Second Class; and Apprentice Seaman

According to: http://www.cem.va.gov/CEM/docs/abbreviations/Ranks_Navy.pdf
S1  SEAMAN 1ST CLASS
S2  SEAMAN 2ND CLASS
S3  SEAMAN 3RD CLASS
SA  SEAMAN APPRENTICE
SA1  SEAMAN APPRENTICE
SA2  SEAMAN APPRENTICE
SA3  SEAMAN APPRENTICE

See also: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq78-3.htm#anchors
Search on seaman ;)

Janet Jaguar

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 06:40:57 pm »
See also the the full list of WW1 USN ranks (commissioned officers) and rates (enlisted crew) here.  (Sorry, no abbreviations given.)  I find it nice to see the whole organization tree laid out for all the different branches, with images of all the insignia.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW1NavyUS-Ranks.htm

Danny252

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 06:45:46 pm »
Ah, but your last link says that the use of "Seaman x Class" didn't exist at earlier dates:

Seaman - changed to Seaman 1c and 2c 1921.
Ordinary Seaman - changed to Seaman 2c 1917.

However, given that they seem to be considered as one class apart at later dates, it seems sensible that they do at earlier ones as well :)

(Another odd one is that I've got a record of a Coal Passer being reduced to 4th class, which makes little sense as I thought that CP was as low as you could get!)


Janet Jaguar

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 06:48:28 pm »
I'm just guessing - they wanted to tell him his behavior was lower than the lowest? :o

Randi

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 06:54:32 pm »
 ;D
I've also seen ratings noted in logs after they were officially abolished.

I don't know if they continued to be used out of habit or if a person kept that rating till he was promoted/demoted/retired.

Janet Jaguar

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2014, 08:01:44 pm »
Actually, when a rating is abolished, that simply means no new sailors will be given that rating.  It isn't stripped from the records of those who earned it, and they move into the new system only when promoted and demoted. 

Danny252

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 10:27:33 pm »
I'm just guessing - they wanted to tell him his behavior was lower than the lowest? :o

Quite possibly, although he wasn't the most badly behaved of my crew (the infamous Mr. Brew would've been more deserving!).

As for keeping old ratings, it makes things easier from the point of view to follow someone's career - if you saw J Doe (Sea) and then later J Doe (Sea 1C) or similar, you may be confused into thinking he's had a rank change if you're amateurs like us :)

Danny252

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 03:57:31 pm »
I think I've got the answer for this one - the Albatross has made mention of a reduction to "3rd conduct class". Googling that, I came across the book On Board the "Pensacola", written by an Ordinary Seaman on the USS Pensacola, and detailing a voyage in 1890. On page 15, the Conduct Classes are detailed as follows:

Quote
Conduct Classes

First Conduct Class
Those who perform duty efficiently, cheerfully, and have no more than four hours' extra duty during the month and return from leave clean and sober.

Second Conduct Class
Those who perform duty efficiently and cheerfully, though in a less degree than those of the first class, and have no more than eight hours extra duty during the month, and return from leave on time, but show the effects of drink, or not over leave more than two hours, and clean and sober.

Third Conduct Class
Those who perform duty less efficiently and willingly than those of first and second classes, and have over ten hours' extra duty during the month, return from leave drunk or not more than twelve hours overtime.

Fourth Conduct Class
All those who can not fill the requirements of the third class and have eighteen hours' or more extra duty.

Whenever funds or circumstances on board will permit and the efficiency of the ship will warrant the indulgence, the first conduct class will be granted liberty and draw monthly money and one half of their monthly pay.

Second conduct class may be granted liberty for twenty-four hours, once a month, and draw one third of their monthly money.

Third conduct class may be granted liberty once in six weeks, for twenty-four hours, and draw one fourth of their monthly money.

Fourth conduct class may be granted liberty for twnty-four hours in two months and draw one fifth of their monthly money.

The crew will be classified monthly as to conduct. Any one of the second, third, and fourth conduct classes who returns from liberty on time clean nd sober, will be promoted one class, provided the number of hours extra duty during previous month will warrant such promotion.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:00:57 pm by Danny252 »

Randi

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 03:59:40 pm »
Wonderful!

This explains the reduction to 4'th class ;D
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:05:28 pm by Randi »

Kookaburra

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 04:03:34 pm »
Oh, this is interesting!  Big difference in privileges between classes.    Since I am working on 1889, I think this will be the same standard my crew is subject to.  Nice find!

Randi

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2015, 09:40:21 am »
 ;D
...
17-12-1896 - 8 a.m. to meridian:
P. Ford (mach.) returned on board 74 hours overtime and by order of the Commanding Officer was placed on the 4th conduct class for 3 months.

http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/USS%20Yorktown/vol016of040_jpg_clean/vol016of040_183_1.jpg
...

Maikel

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2015, 08:52:00 am »
There must have been another conduct class, the special conduct class. :)

U.S.S. Yorktown - At anchor Shanghai, China.

01-01-1897 - 8 a.m. to meridian:
By order of the Commanding Officer, G.F. Reeves (app. 1C.); B. Lipman (app. 2C.) were advanced to special class conduct grade and J.P.D. Breen (o. sea.) to first class for quickly manning boat, when man was overboard.

http://oldweather.s3.amazonaws.com/ow3/final/USS%20Yorktown/vol017of040_jpg_clean/vol017of040_006_1.jpg

Randi

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2015, 08:56:20 pm »

HHTime Ron

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Re: Reduced One Class
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2015, 09:23:19 pm »
There is an old saw in War College that since every service four-star wants to leave a legacy, each out-going, peace-time service chief would either change the rank structure or the uniforms.  When the services were forced to adopt the standard pay grade structure of E1 thru 12, P1 thru 4, and O1-thru-10, they stopped changing the names of the ranks, but started changing the mess-dress uniforms almost annually and introduced the colored beanies.